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Hellraiser pulley install...FAIL?!!!

Magnified

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#41

Magnified

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#42
Actually he's not a fan of either one (Twin screws in general). Thinks factory tolerances should be tighter on 2.7. Believes you should stay 2.85 pulley or bigger for reliability on 2.7 unit.
These are my thoughts/words not his: If you look at the rotor length on the 2.7, it's substantially longer than a 2.4, like 1.2" at least. I know the Metco tool adapter was 1.4" to make up difference on the RE snout so maybe its 1.4". Now you have that much more mass and length spinning at speed (like 18000 to 22000 on the slower bigger one, the smaller of the two is faster). When the blower was designed, it was designed, period. Now Dodge wanted bigger and better. What's the cheapest route? Stretch the existing design. But then it's not a properly designed clean sheet of paper kind of thing. So I'm thinking more flex when stressed? Leading to bearing/rotor/wear problems and weird noises?
Best example is this. (I'm originally a Chevy guy so forgive me). When Chevy designed the original 396/427 BBC it was the perfect design unto itself. That motor will spin to 7000 plus RPM seamlessly and vibration free almost like a SBC and was internally balanced. Rod /stroke ratio excellent, crank pin overlap excellent. Then Chevy wanted more cubes and more torque and H.P. What'd they do? Stretch the existing design. Yep, the 454 makes more power. But all the race/street guys knew it was less reliable. Rod/main knocks real common. Thrown rods, real common. Going 7K+ repetitively forget it. Now you could get it to live (I did it) above 7K but you needed all the best reinforcement. 4 bolt mains, nitrided forged crank, big rods etc. And I'll tell you this; even with my 454 (which never failed) There was a vibration at @2500RPM when coming down off high RPM because with the now externally balanced crank and longer stroke there was more overlap and torsional flex and the machine shop could only build perfect balance at high or low rpm but not both.
So until they come out with titanium rotors and a more heavily reinforced T6 case, I'll keep my 2.7 pulley at 3.17 dia. and be happy with the power...I hope.:)
How bad was that vibration at 2500?
 
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coolblue

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Thread Starter #43
How bad was that vibration at 2500?
When driving, none at all. When sitting still, tuning, etc if you revved it up past 2500 hundred she'd climb smoothly but when you let off the throttle, every time you'd feel it . It would literally vibrate the dash and floor and then quickly go to zero vibe below that again. Not like earthshaking but a low vibe. Car was all steel, no rugs, headliner or door panels. If it had full interior and sound deadening you may not have noticed. But I literally built every single piece of that car and was hard wired to it's DNA, I probably still would've noticed.
 

Magnified

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#44
Thanks for taking the time to go into it. Had something happen to an old Mustang of mine, way back, and always interested in other's similar experiences.
 
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coolblue

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Thread Starter #45
Here's an update on the Hellraiser pulley install on my RE. Did the install last week.
I got snout back from Jokerz (Very fast turnaround, got it back fast) with the ceramic bearings installed. He believed my "marble sound" was the bushings and could see nothing wrong with the snout or Hellraiser pulley. He said he could send just bushings and give snout back buuut just in case it wasn't, I told'm to do the whole race rebuild(no porting). With that I got the ceramic bearings but I also opted for a custom shaft that has a hex machined into the front so you don't have to remove the blower to swap out a pulley. You have to drill a hole through the 17MM hex tool that removes the pulley so you can get a 10MM allen wrench through it and keep the rotors from spinning. Thought that was slick and hope it works. You still have to drill a hole through the tool and move the radiator hose out of way to do removal but it's better than removing the whole blower! Just hope the 10MM allen has enough surface area to hold the shaft without stripping and that you can get a clean hole through the 17MM hex tool.
The bushings are custom made for him. They seem to be a cloth fused with a phenolic resin and machined to size. They are softer than the factory bushings and cushion the sound. The factory set is supposed to go 100K, he says his may go 50K? But in his words "hey it's not perfect but it should quiet the noise if that's what you want".
Result: It still makes the noise but more muted and seems to come and go. Before it was just "marbles" at idle when hot period. The noise goes away when off idle whether stock bushings or custom. Still bothers me, I may do more.
 

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Old Mopar Guy

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#46
Glad to hear that your machine is on the road to recovery. 👍
 

fubar569

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#47
How much did that snout set you back with the quickshaft?
 
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coolblue

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Thread Starter #48
How much did that snout set you back with the quickshaft?
Shaft was $175. Bushings alone were $115.
Breakdown:
Race rebuild 600
Shaft 175
Bushings 115
Shipping 35
Total : 925
 

jroyk

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#49
That second pic reminds me of an ACE bandage. Hope it works out for you.
 
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coolblue

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Thread Starter #50
That second pic reminds me of an ACE bandage. Hope it works out for you.
When I said cloth, it's still solid. It's like a matt they rolled in epoxy and hardened then machined. It's just not that hard brittle type plastic. You can feel it when you tap them into the coupler, they have some give and are tighter than factory. He's only sold like 25-30 sets so far. I bought a set of replacement bushings form JB performance that are hard plastic like factory to give me an option. I may switch back.
 
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coolblue

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Thread Starter #51
Latest..... Home made Hellraiser install/uninstall tool.
Well today I made the the hollow hex tool that is required for a Hellraiser pulley install/ un-install without removing blower or snout. WHAT A BITCH!!!!!!. OK, I bought the the custom shaft from Jokerz that is machined for a 10MM allen to hold rotors stationary while removing pulley, BUT he doesn't sell the hollow 17MM hex the 10MM allen has to go through to remove the pulley. NOW I KNOW WHY. I bought the pulley alone without the kit, so I don't know what Hellraiser's/Litens hex installation tool is made of but when I had to make my own Hex tool I bought an old USA made tool steel 17MM allen wrench and cut off a hunk to make my own. This shit is hard. I mean one step below a socket hard. I could not dent this thing. Hack saw barely scratched it. Had to cut it with a 4" steel cutoff wheel. Tried to mark center with a punch...not a mark. I burned 4 drill bits and 3 or 4 carbide head porting tools to do this PLUS it took like 5 or 6 hrs to do it. Ok, let me make this clear...the hole you see in the pics was NOT drilled. The bits would not cut. I did this BY EYE AND BY HAND TOTALLY FREESTYLE with a head porting tool over six hrs. There's not much meat on the bone on the perimeter of the tool so I'm glad it's hardened steel. If this thing works when I try it, I won't sell even for $1000 after the work put in. Patting myself on the back but I'm pretty proud of this little handmade do-hickey.
 

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Magnified

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#52
American steel for the f-ing win! Great work man. Especially free hand.
 

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So...how soon before offering these for sale to the forum:ROFLMAO::LOL::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::LOL:
 
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coolblue

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Thread Starter #54
So...how soon before offering these for sale to the forum:ROFLMAO::LOL::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::LOL:
I sell you what's left of the original 17MM allen. You could make your own. Nice winter project. It'll take you till spring to get through so start now. :LOL:.
 

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Wow , the 17mm hex that comes with hellraiser pulley drills out easily fyi, good work though!
 
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coolblue

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Thread Starter #56
Wow , the 17mm hex that comes with hellraiser pulley drills out easily fyi, good work though!
I'm going to drill out the bigger Metco hex tool so I'll have a setup to go quickly between the stock and any other Hellraiser size pulley down the road when I get it tuned. Hopefully the Metco drills as easily as the Litens hex like your saying.
Have you actually used the quick change setup with the 10MM allen to hold the shaft? I'd like to know how it works. That 10MM scares me a little. It just doesn't look like it would hold the shaft with much authority.
 

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I'm going to drill out the bigger Metco hex tool so I'll have a setup to go quickly between the stock and any other Hellraiser size pulley down the road when I get it tuned. Hopefully the Metco drills as easily as the Litens hex like your saying.Have you actually used the quick change setup with the 10MM allen to hold the shaft? I'd like to know how it works. That 10MM scares me a little. It just doesn't look like it would hold the shaft with much authority.
The hardened one you drilled out will!! Put a box end wrench on it, put a hex key in the shaft with a tight fitting cheater pipe on it, and give the tip of the box end a quick wack with a 5 lb dead blow, that should pop the pulley loose. Put a big tripled up towel under the tip of the box end to keep it from marring any thing below it.
 
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coolblue

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Thread Starter #58
OK, latest in the saga.
Today I made the removal hex for the stock pulley. The hex tool from Metco was a hell of alot easier to drill and port than the tool steel allen key I made for the Hellraiser pulley. Now here's the fantabulous , wonderful, over the top, joy O joy, ...happy dance. IT WORKED!!!! BUT let me say, it still wasn't easy. Making the hollow hex tools sucked both times and that Hellraiser didn't want to come off. I had to cut the end off the box wrench so I could slip a pipe on for leverage, and had my wife hold the 10mm allen with a 3 foot pipe on it. It was tight getting it all in there (in fact you have to slip the tool/tools together as a unit then put it in the pulley because if you put the hex tool in the pulley then try and maneuver the 10mm allen in place you can't swing it). But once all was said and done it's way easier than removing the blower and other surrounding components to swap out the pulley! If I had to do it again, I could probably do it in twenty minutes. Here's the BIG NEWS. Once I put the stock pulley back on......NO MORE NOISE (No more marbles in the snout).
 

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#59
So the HR pulley failed somehow?
 
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coolblue

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Thread Starter #60
So the HR pulley failed somehow?
No. This is my thinking.
When I took the stock pulley off and compared it to the Hellraiser both had the freewheeling decoupler feature, but the stock pulley would immediately lock up in the direction of load (absolutely no play). The hellraiser is soft on lockup, with a boingy, springy feel with some give (I estimate 1/8" or more...dk didn't measure it) then lockup. I'm thinking with the 2.7 blower there's more resistance/pressure at idle on the shaft with the longer rotors than a 2.4 and they're triggering the springy lockup mechanism causing the chatter. If I had a manual idle adjustment like a carburetor I could've changed idle speed and saw what happened at different rpm's.
 
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