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WINDAGE. Not a problem anymore?.

coolblue

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#1
Ok, first lets get the fart jokes out of the way...…...waiting. (Older members must have a ton in reserve. Lol). I'm prepared for the deluge.
Now lets start with the real SEXY question I'm sure is on everyone's mind and will break all thread post records. What ever happened to oil windage being a problem? I mean before I got into the Gen III hemi and was building small and BB Chevy's, oil windage was a real concern. Meaning it was bad on many levels.
1-It would rob horsepower by causing a "rope" of oil around the crank as it was spinning(belief was on average it could rob 25hp or more above 6000rpm).
2- It would get very aeriated and lose consistency and subsequent oil pressure (scoring up bearings and a multitude of friction/burning up problems) and
3- Would cause the rings to get over whelmed and oil bypass at high rpm (lowering octane, fouling plugs and causing huge blow-by past breathers )
Guy's would do all they could to prevent the sh*# storm of oil from whipping around inside the engine (i.e. oil restrictors, crank scrapers etc.). Now the gen III has oil SQUIRTERS! which ADD to this oil storm. Don't all those other things still exist?
I know todays engines have higher silicon pistons and tighter clearances and synthetic oil. But does that make all that other stuff go away???
 

Hunter

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#2
Question is way above my pay grade.
 

McLovin

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#3
Here for the fart jokes...
 

16GoManGoHC2

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#4
Most Oil pan gaskets these days on performance engines incorporate windage trays, the Hellcat and Demon engines have such already

F8339434-E0E0-461B-A2DA-ECB5726C352D.png
 
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OP
coolblue

coolblue

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Thread Starter #5
Question is way above my pay grade.
Geez HUNTER, could've contributed a fart joke. :LOL:. Seriously,Thanks for the look see.
 
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coolblue

coolblue

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Thread Starter #6
Most Oil pan gaskets these days on performance engines incorporate windage trays, the Hellcat and Demon engines have such already

View attachment 1033
Mike is that you from the other site? Is that all you got? Cause then NO ONE has an in depth answer and I'm really screwed for info. LOL. The squirters put it in the mix above the pan (and the Demon doubles down) so although the tray helps a bunch, it's inescapable the oil getting caught up in the rotating assembly. Just was thinking about this for awhile ,don't know why. Prob part of my OCD. That's really a good picture. You must've googled a few to find it and took some time, thank you very much for the response. Tony.
 

16GoManGoHC2

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#7
Yes it’s me :)

No, only took a few seconds to find

Grab a beer and Watch this on a big TV


With cranks being deep in the block anymore make it harder to scrape them clear of oil anymore but engineers still do a good job at it.
 

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#8
See. Learn something new every day here.
 

16GoManGoHC2

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#9
All that oil is needed squirted up on those pistons or they’d probably melt lol. Don’t worry about windage HP loss, it’s scavenged out of there pretty well by the stock trays and is taking a pile of heat away with it
 
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coolblue

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Thread Starter #10
Yes it’s me :)

No, only took a few seconds to find

Grab a beer and Watch this on a big TV


With cranks being deep in the block anymore make it harder to scrape them clear of oil anymore but engineers still do a good job at it.
Saw that a few weeks ago from another post and thanked the member who posted it (I think it was Mark W it might've been Mark P). It is an excellent vid with great info. Again thank you. Going to breakfast with wifey. Have a great Labor Day weekend.
 

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#11
Pretty well answered. The 0w40w oil is like water. so it also is less likely to cling to the crank.
 
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Pretty well answered. The 0w40w oil is like water. so it also is less likely to cling to the crank.
I have run straight 60 in a car before. It felt like it was wading through muck just to rev it up with no load. I can definitely echo that the newer, low-viscosity synthetics are the cat's meow.

BUT, one of the desirable properties of oil is its ability to form a film, which is why it is so wind-around-the-rotating-parts-able.

From what I gleaned over the years, It seems that the lateral tornado inside the crankcase caused by the crank could influence the actual pool of oil in the pan to get twisted around the crank, or at least that was my perception of the information. It reminds me of sticking a spoon in some Nutella and twisting it. Tarbaby in the making, maybe?

Having said all that, I admire Dodge yet again for including a windage tray right in the engine design. It interrupts the vortex that the crank tries to form, and prevents it from blowing across Lake Petroleum in the oil pan and whipping it into a rogue wave of clingy oil, looking for a hug from the crank.

BTW, I theorize that that is why the new Hellcats have a lower oil fill mark on the dipstick than the former ones with (reportedly) exactly the same-size oil pans. I bet they found that it was a bit too much oil hanging around outside the local convenience store with not much to do but hitch rides on passing crank throws.
 
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hellno

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#13
Yes it’s me :)

No, only took a few seconds to find

Grab a beer and Watch this on a big TV


With cranks being deep in the block anymore make it harder to scrape them clear of oil anymore but engineers still do a good job at it.
ABSOLUTELY LOVED THE VIDEO AND NOW KNOW I CAN DO MY SUPERCHARGER BEARINGS MYSELF IF I EVER HAVE AN ISSUE WITH THEM :)
 

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BTW, I theorize that that is why the new Hellcats have a lower oil fill mark on the dipstick than the former ones with (reportedly) exactly the same-size oil pans. I bet they found that it was a bit too much oil hanging around outside the local convenience store with not much to do but hitch rides on passing crank throws.
It is actually the other way around the '15 & '16 dipsticks were marked for 1 Qt less than the '17 and later dipsticks.
 

Jack_Toepfer

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@coolblue - Curious as to why you think it doesn't matter anymore. Did you see something that said that it didn't?
It's increasingly more important, as seen here on our stock factory motors, that windage is in the list of things that the OEMs are taking seriously.
 

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Having said all that, I admire Dodge yet again for including a windage tray right in the engine design. It interrupts the vortex that the crank tries to form, and prevents it from blowing across Lake Petroleum in the oil pan and whipping it into a rogue wave of clingy oil, looking for a hug from the crank.
:) lol well said
 

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The Gen 3 Hemi comes with a windage tray that prevents the oil sling that is a issue. Light weight oils with anti foaming formulas all address the issues that they had back in the good old days. But every little “hot rod” trick helps. My billet crank has been polished in the area that engages the oil. The smoother it is the less it will carry. Attention to detail is horsepower. :cool: FFD7335E-6D7E-4248-8CD6-97825D5FD972.jpeg
 

Jimmy N.

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#18
Engine Masters (Freiburger) had an interesting episode that showed (on a dyno) how much power and oil pressure was lost with too much oil in the pan.
Even the recommended amount was too much at times.
 

Marc W

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Engine Masters (Freiburger) had an interesting episode that showed (on a dyno) how much power and oil pressure was lost with too much oil in the pan.
Even the recommended amount was too much at times.
There was a discussion with the engine builder/tuner for the Factory Stock Drag Pak that Leah is driving. He said that to be competitive, when it came down to the final round for the win.... they would drain oil and run low even if it meant damaging the motor to get to the finish line first.
 
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coolblue

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Thread Starter #20
@coolblue - Curious as to why you think it doesn't matter anymore. Did you see something that said that it didn't?
It's increasingly more important, as seen here on our stock factory motors, that windage is in the list of things that the OEMs are taking seriously.
Glad to see this old thread still has some life! What I meant was, why doesn't it matter to the guys (and gals) who are into the high perf racing scene and building engines. You NEVER see this brought up in a motor conversation anymore or a racing thread or a build thread.(unless it's a secret...not going there again). I mean it's inescapable. You throw liquid in the air around, or directly at a whirling assembly spinning at great velocity and it's gonna get caught up in the assembly and cause drag. The windage tray is great. It's an old reliable (and cheap) proven method of lessening the rope affect and keeping oil from getting sucked back up into the assembly. I'm all for that, and great the factory provides it. But what about everything else? The oil squirters are above the pan. You can't escape that. So no matter how well the windage tray works, the oil is introduced above it. If you build a dedicated race motor for 1/4 mile work , are they really needed? Has any one put plugs in block and built one long term? Scrapers; not a valid idea anymore? I dk, no one seems to use'm anymore. I personally know a friend who put a vacuum pump on a customers BB Chevy racecar and it pulled another 25hp from the motor because it relieved the pressure in the bottom of the motor and the rings sealed better. So if you did some extra detail build work and used a vacuum pump and a competent oil control system, pulling another 50 "free" HP not worth it?
I'm simply gonna chalk this up to 'necessary evil'. The squirters cool the pistons and lube everything so they are for sure adequately lubricated even if there's a loss of HP. On a supercharged engine I'll say yes I get it. But Mopar provided these on naturally asperated engines before the Hellcat. Chevy and Ford seem to do ok without them. :unsure:.
 
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