• Sign Up! To view all forums and unlock additional cool features

    Welcome to the #1 Dodge, Jeep and RAM Forum dedicated to FCA owners and enthusiasts. Register for an account, it's free and it's easy, so don't hesitate to join the SRT Forum today!


Afr at full throttle

Speedy!

Infomercial Producer
Staff Team
Founding Member
U.S. Marine Veteran
9 Second Best E/T
HFCOTM & HFCOTY
Member ID
#1070
Messages
6,155
Reactions
15,760
Likes
402
City
Murfreesboro
State
TN
Country
United States
Vehicle
2016 Hellcat Go Man Go
#41
I'd be salty too with all that work done to your car and running 9.70 at 141, I get it now LOL

Have a good day :)
 


fumanchu182

3000 Posts Club
Vendor
Premium Account
U.S. Navy Veteran
Donating Member
9 Second Best E/T
HFCOTM
Member ID
#2366
Messages
3,532
Reactions
8,604
Likes
302
City
Pasadena
State
MD
Country
United States
Vehicle
2015 Challenger SRT Hellcat
#42
59C57374-46F7-4C9F-BAA7-8A612ACBF6E2.gif
 


jonx96

4000 Posts Club
8 Second Best E/T
HFCOTM
Member ID
#4957
Messages
4,255
Reactions
10,587
Likes
302
City
Small town
State
MI
Country
United States
Vehicle
2019 Challenger Redeye
#43
Bingo @jonx96 guess what my dash reads at idle on E85😎 I wouldn't say using the injector method is wrong per se but I wanted to set mine up as if it were factory tuned for E85. Takes a bit more work bur worth it IMO.

Plus when you have tunes for pump gasoline and E85 you'll know which tune and fuel is in the car by what the dash gauge reads.

If only we could change the dash to read lambda. The car actually reads lambda and converts to afr so woulda been an easy option.

I can see this being confusing for people new to these concepts. Gives me a content idea for another lame ass video:ROFLMAO:
I’ve been researching hemi tuning all week. Probably 30 hrs into I can’t stop reading on it haha the amount of discussion on injector hacking is insane. Especially, VE vs NN and whats were he right way. But that’s a thread of it’s I want to make at some point. I think it would bring good discussion. If you read the form post even Curt had to “injector hack” at one point for best performance. But as he said there has been major updates in the tuning world to stop that from being the case.
 


jonx96

4000 Posts Club
8 Second Best E/T
HFCOTM
Member ID
#4957
Messages
4,255
Reactions
10,587
Likes
302
City
Small town
State
MI
Country
United States
Vehicle
2019 Challenger Redeye
#44
Go argue with Chrysler. Be carful of this guy. His emojis and his little power trip can have you blowing up your engine. Speedy made a video back in time where he changed his tuners tune and proceeded to blow up his engine. The guy is snake oil.
I have seen that video. There was more to his video than that. I posted I wasn’t looking to argue. I wasn’t siding with anyone. But with your comment you are admitting that post is siding with speedy and not yourself.
If you look at mustang and ls forums there is so much tuning information out there. With our cars though there is hardly anything. Anyone looking to share information is much needed.
 


Speedy!

Infomercial Producer
Staff Team
Founding Member
U.S. Marine Veteran
9 Second Best E/T
HFCOTM & HFCOTY
Member ID
#1070
Messages
6,155
Reactions
15,760
Likes
402
City
Murfreesboro
State
TN
Country
United States
Vehicle
2016 Hellcat Go Man Go
#45
I’ve been researching hemi tuning all week. Probably 30 hrs into I can’t stop reading on it haha the amount of discussion on injector hacking is insane. Especially, VE vs NN and whats were he right way. But that’s a thread of it’s I want to make at some point. I think it would bring good discussion. If you read the form post even Curt had to “injector hack” at one point for best performance. But as he said there has been major updates in the tuning world to stop that from being the case.
I love this stuff. I've had some conversations with folks via email that have experience with Ford tuning and it's WAY different, some things are easier, some are harder than what we have so it's interesting how each manufacturer sets up the calibrations. I'm not sure what the term "injector hack" means? I had to start with base data from Injector Dynamics and then tweak it for my car but I doubt that's what you're referring to? You have to tell the injector how much fuel mass is presented with each pulse and use that to dial in the trims as close to zero as you can get them. We're getting way off OP topic so start a new thread on this and tag me and I'll share what I've learned. Can be a PITA with larger injectors, or at least it was for me.
 


AlleyCat

500 Posts Club
9 Second Best E/T
Member ID
#1332
Messages
803
Reactions
725
Likes
82
City
Oro Valley
State
AZ
Country
United States
Vehicle
16 HC Challenger
#46
I'd be salty too with all that work done to your car and running 9.70 at 141, I get it now LOL

Have a good day :)
You should make a video on DA since you understand that also. What an idget!
 


BULL

Oh NO! Not that guy!
Staff Team
Founding Member
U.S. Marine Veteran
Donating Member
HFCOTM
Wiki Contributor
Member ID
#1079
Messages
14,745
Reactions
45,282
Likes
402
City
Weld County
State
CO
Country
United States
Vehicle
MY16 M6 Challenger Hellcat
HFCOTM
View Images
#47
@AlleyCat

What's up with the insults? If you're not a Speedy fan, that's fine, but stop with the name calling.
 


AlleyCat

500 Posts Club
9 Second Best E/T
Member ID
#1332
Messages
803
Reactions
725
Likes
82
City
Oro Valley
State
AZ
Country
United States
Vehicle
16 HC Challenger
#48
When speedy, states things I did not state he needs to have a thicker skin. I just do not want people blowing up their car based on his idgit videos. I was never a fan along with a lot of others.
 


Speedy!

Infomercial Producer
Staff Team
Founding Member
U.S. Marine Veteran
9 Second Best E/T
HFCOTM & HFCOTY
Member ID
#1070
Messages
6,155
Reactions
15,760
Likes
402
City
Murfreesboro
State
TN
Country
United States
Vehicle
2016 Hellcat Go Man Go
#49
Ok let's swing back to this now that I've got some time :) @fumanchu182 seems to really get it as the equation he posted is spot on for determining PE fueling. I built a spreadsheet to use for those to make things quick and easy.

Warning techie stuff below:

The stoich point is programmable in the Hellcat. Factory is .0722. Divide it by 1 to get AFR of 13.85 that is close to what is displayed on the dash. Mine usually reads like 13.5ish on pump 93 at idle and cruise. PE is power enrichment and there's a separate table that is an adder for when WOT is achieved. That's how you get the WOT fueling where you want. I bet the OP tune has a PE value of .0230 in that table (or there abouts) which would explain the 10.5 AFR reading on the dash. This assumes COT is turned off of course. That's pretty rich and too rich is just as almost as bad as too lean IMO. I believe rich tunes lead to burned up cats if still on the car. Factory PE table is .0110 which is 12.02 AFR, but they rely on COT which is yet another table with a fuel adder amount to come in pretty quick and you'll end up with a 10.5 or 10.8 or so AFR reading on the dash with pump gas when that happens.

Where @AlleyCat missed the boat was trying to mix an E85 discussion at stoich in with a gasoline discussion at WOT. That's comparing apples and chalk. My point to him is that if his car is running E85 and he sees 10.9/11.1 on his AFR dash gauge at WOT then the factory stoich point for gasoline was not changed to stoich for E85. Doesn't mean his tune is wrong, but that's relevant for the OPs question.

To have the dash read the actual AFR on E85 the stoich point in the tune would need to be changed (with about a dozen other tables) to that of E85 as it has a different stoich point than gasoline. E85 is 9.85 (.1015) as Jonx96 posted above. Straight gasoline stoich is 14.7 (.0683) and SRT chose 13.85 (.0722) for whatever reason. Most think that is to account for the ethanol in most pump gasoline these days. Locally mine says "up to 10% ethanol". Once you get in to flex fuel tuning, you actually have multiple stoich points in the tune to account for varying percentages of ethanol and that gets pretty complex.

Do you have to change the stoich point in the tune to make the dash read correctly, no. Is it the right way to do it? I think so as I believe that is how the factory would have done it if they put the car out to run on E85. Cars will run just fine without making that change though, as long as the injector data is setup properly for the fuel being used, like around 25-30% more on the fuel mass for E85. Like I said before, I prefer to know what tune and fuel are in the car and making this change allows me to take a quick look at the dash and know. If I see 9.8x at idle I know I'm on E85, 13.x I'm on gasoline. My flex fuel tune works the exact same way E40 is around low 11, E60 low 10, etc (from memory).

All of that is talking AFR. If you're staying with a single fuel and know the stoich point and it never changes then dealing in AFR is fine. I did for YEARS on my old car. Once you start changing fuels with different stoich points it can get confusing so Lambda is a simpler way to think of it. Stoich for any fuel is Lambda 1. More than 1 is lean less than 1 is rich. HPTuners can read the wide bands in Lambda as well as some AFR settings for different fuels like gasoline, ethanol, LPG, etc, but you can't create a custom one like the Hellcat would need (13.85). Using Lambda is the easiest. For gasoline a Lambda of .82 - .83 is what I target for PE. .82 x 13.85 = 11.35 AFR. On E85 I target .81 Lambda .81 x 9.85 = 7.97. At WOT on my E85 tune my AFR gauge reads 7.97.

Clear as mud?
 


Last edited:

AlleyCat

500 Posts Club
9 Second Best E/T
Member ID
#1332
Messages
803
Reactions
725
Likes
82
City
Oro Valley
State
AZ
Country
United States
Vehicle
16 HC Challenger
#50
Ok let's swing back to this now that I've got some time :) @fumanchu182 seems to really get it as the equation he posted is spot on for determining PE fueling. I built a spreadsheet to use for those to make things quick and easy.

Warning techie stuff below:

The stoich point is programmable in the Hellcat. Factory is .0722. Divide it by 1 to get AFR of 13.85 that is close to what is displayed on the dash. Mine usually reads like 13.5ish on pump 93 at idle and cruise. PE is power enrichment and there's a separate table that is an adder for when WOT is achieved. That's how you get the WOT fueling where you want. I bet the OP tune has a PE value of .0230 in that table (or there abouts) which would explain the 10.5 AFR reading on the dash. This assumes COT is turned off of course. That's pretty rich and too rich is just as almost as bad as too lean IMO. I believe rich tunes lead to burned up cats if still on the car. Factory PE table is .0110 which is 12.02 AFR, but they rely on COT which is yet another table with a fuel adder amount to come in pretty quick and you'll end up with a 10.5 or 10.8 or so AFR reading on the dash with pump gas when that happens.

Where @AlleyCat missed the boat was trying to mix an E85 discussion at stoich in with a gasoline discussion at WOT. That's comparing apples and chalk. My point to him is that if his car is running E85 and he sees 10.9/11.1 on his AFR dash gauge at WOT then the factory stoich point for gasoline was not changed to stoich for E85. Doesn't mean his tune is wrong, but that's relevant for the OPs question.

To have the dash read the actual AFR on E85 the stoich point in the tune would need to be changed (with about a dozen other tables) to that of E85 as it has a different stoich point than gasoline. E85 is 9.85 (.1015) as Jonx96 posted above. Straight gasoline stoich is 14.7 (.0683) and SRT chose 13.85 (.0722) for whatever reason. Most think that is to account for the ethanol in most pump gasoline these days. Locally mine says "up to 10% ethanol". Once you get in to flex fuel tuning, you actually have multiple stoich points in the tune to account for varying percentages of ethanol and that gets pretty complex.

Do you have to change the stoich point in the tune to make the dash read correctly, no. Is it the right way to do it? I think so as I believe that is how the factory would have done it if they put the car out to run on E85. Cars will run just fine without making that change though, as long as the injector data is setup properly for the fuel being used, like around 25-30% more on the fuel mass for E85. Like I said before, I prefer to know what tune and fuel are in the car and making this change allows me to take a quick look at the dash and know. If I see 9.8x at idle I know I'm on E85, 13.x I'm on gasoline. My flex fuel tune works the exact same way E40 is around low 11, E60 low 10, etc (from memory).

All of that is talking AFR. If you're staying with a single fuel and know the stoich point and it never changes then dealing in AFR is fine. I did for YEARS on my old car. Once you start changing fuels with different stoich points it can get confusing so Lambda is a simpler way to think of it. Stoich for any fuel is Lambda 1. More than 1 is lean less than 1 is rich. HPTuners can read the wide bands in Lambda as well as some AFR settings for different fuels like gasoline, ethanol, LPG, etc, but you can't create a custom one like the Hellcat would need (13.85). Using Lambda is the easiest. For gasoline a Lambda of .82 - .83 is what I target for PE. .82 x 13.85 = 11.35 AFR. On E85 I target .81 Lambda .81 x 9.85 = 7.97. At WOT on my E85 tune my AFR gauge reads 7.97.

Clear as mud?
There you go again. Telling me and others I missed the equation. No where did I state the stoich of E85 is 13.85. I have never said that nor would I ever state that.
I was telling him specifically that 10.5 on a stoic of 13.85, if it was not changed on his tune, was too rich of an afr. It is .75 to .76 which is too rich. I think you are just not interpreting what I stated.

At any rate the commanded lambda is not actual afr. For that you get on a good dyno with it run properly and hopefully you will get your true afr. Lambda is commanded afr. AFR is AFR. Although the wide bands on our car are a second choice to a "good dyno with a good dyno operator". I am not a tuner.

The OP needs to get a tuner he trusts and all will be well. If he or you want to take the time to learn the trade all the power to you.
 


Speedy!

Infomercial Producer
Staff Team
Founding Member
U.S. Marine Veteran
9 Second Best E/T
HFCOTM & HFCOTY
Member ID
#1070
Messages
6,155
Reactions
15,760
Likes
402
City
Murfreesboro
State
TN
Country
United States
Vehicle
2016 Hellcat Go Man Go
#51
Never suggested you said stoich for E85 was 13.85, not sure where that's coming from. I can agree that 10.5 is to rich and that does equate to .76 Lambda. Your car hasn't had the stoich point changed for E85. Nothing wrong with that it just means what you see on the dash isn't the true AFR. Like I said before if we could set the dash to just show Lambda we'd probably not even be talking about this. OP is on gasoline so his is showing true AFR and yes it's a bit rich IMO but his tuner must like that setup.

I do like learning about these cars and was blessed to have Mike from OST train me on Hellcat tuning for about a year. So I am interested in how it all works rather than it being the black box it was just a few years ago before HPTuners was available for Mopar. Engine side is actually pretty easy, transmission is a whole different ball game. Flex fuel a complete PITA at least it was for me to figure out.
 


Magnified

Poster Club Hall of Fame
Founding Member
Member ID
#1155
Messages
11,710
Reactions
19,832
Likes
352
City
West Texas
State
TX
Country
United States
Vehicle
2017 Charger HC (once upon a time)
#52
running excessively rich will kill the cats if you're still using them, not instantaneous, timing depends on exact circumstances. I think many folks feel better to be rich and run the risk of trashing the cats (not inexpensive by any means) as opposed to going lean and risking catastrophic damage to the motor.
 


OP
Hemiride

Hemiride

Active Member
Founding Member
Member ID
#999
Messages
279
Reactions
291
Likes
37
City
Farwell
State
MI
Country
United States
Vehicle
2016 challenger hellcat
Thread Starter #53
To be fair to the tuner I did tell him I wanted to play on the safe side. I caked that the shift points stay at factory settings. Not a fan of too much RPMs
 


fumanchu182

3000 Posts Club
Vendor
Premium Account
U.S. Navy Veteran
Donating Member
9 Second Best E/T
HFCOTM
Member ID
#2366
Messages
3,532
Reactions
8,604
Likes
302
City
Pasadena
State
MD
Country
United States
Vehicle
2015 Challenger SRT Hellcat
#54
Ok let's swing back to this now that I've got some time :) @fumanchu182 seems to really get it as the equation he posted is spot on for determining PE fueling. I built a spreadsheet to use for those to make things quick and easy.
aww shucks im blushing

To be fair to the tuner I did tell him I wanted to play on the safe side. I caked that the shift points stay at factory settings. Not a fan of too much RPMs
Understand the playing it safe however a TCM tune can easily shave a .2 off a slip.
 


OP
Hemiride

Hemiride

Active Member
Founding Member
Member ID
#999
Messages
279
Reactions
291
Likes
37
City
Farwell
State
MI
Country
United States
Vehicle
2016 challenger hellcat
Thread Starter #55
aww shucks im blushing



Understand the playing it safe however a TCM tune can easily shave a .2 off a slip.
I don't race. (On the track) lol but when I'm in Mexico it's hard to turn down a challenge.
 


OP
Hemiride

Hemiride

Active Member
Founding Member
Member ID
#999
Messages
279
Reactions
291
Likes
37
City
Farwell
State
MI
Country
United States
Vehicle
2016 challenger hellcat
Thread Starter #56
Update

Data logged

My tuner said the AFR display in the dash reads at a different scale. He says I'm actually in the 11s. So I guess I'll quit worrying lol.
 


white1

Active Member
9 Second Best E/T
Member ID
#5684
Messages
267
Reactions
411
Likes
67
City
Prairieville
State
LA
Country
United States
Vehicle
2020 hellcat charger widebody
#57
Ok let's swing back to this now that I've got some time :) @fumanchu182 seems to really get it as the equation he posted is spot on for determining PE fueling. I built a spreadsheet to use for those to make things quick and easy.

Warning techie stuff below:

The stoich point is programmable in the Hellcat. Factory is .0722. Divide it by 1 to get AFR of 13.85 that is close to what is displayed on the dash. Mine usually reads like 13.5ish on pump 93 at idle and cruise. PE is power enrichment and there's a separate table that is an adder for when WOT is achieved. That's how you get the WOT fueling where you want. I bet the OP tune has a PE value of .0230 in that table (or there abouts) which would explain the 10.5 AFR reading on the dash. This assumes COT is turned off of course. That's pretty rich and too rich is just as almost as bad as too lean IMO. I believe rich tunes lead to burned up cats if still on the car. Factory PE table is .0110 which is 12.02 AFR, but they rely on COT which is yet another table with a fuel adder amount to come in pretty quick and you'll end up with a 10.5 or 10.8 or so AFR reading on the dash with pump gas when that happens.

Where @AlleyCat missed the boat was trying to mix an E85 discussion at stoich in with a gasoline discussion at WOT. That's comparing apples and chalk. My point to him is that if his car is running E85 and he sees 10.9/11.1 on his AFR dash gauge at WOT then the factory stoich point for gasoline was not changed to stoich for E85. Doesn't mean his tune is wrong, but that's relevant for the OPs question.

To have the dash read the actual AFR on E85 the stoich point in the tune would need to be changed (with about a dozen other tables) to that of E85 as it has a different stoich point than gasoline. E85 is 9.85 (.1015) as Jonx96 posted above. Straight gasoline stoich is 14.7 (.0683) and SRT chose 13.85 (.0722) for whatever reason. Most think that is to account for the ethanol in most pump gasoline these days. Locally mine says "up to 10% ethanol". Once you get in to flex fuel tuning, you actually have multiple stoich points in the tune to account for varying percentages of ethanol and that gets pretty complex.

Do you have to change the stoich point in the tune to make the dash read correctly, no. Is it the right way to do it? I think so as I believe that is how the factory would have done it if they put the car out to run on E85. Cars will run just fine without making that change though, as long as the injector data is setup properly for the fuel being used, like around 25-30% more on the fuel mass for E85. Like I said before, I prefer to know what tune and fuel are in the car and making this change allows me to take a quick look at the dash and know. If I see 9.8x at idle I know I'm on E85, 13.x I'm on gasoline. My flex fuel tune works the exact same way E40 is around low 11, E60 low 10, etc (from memory).

All of that is talking AFR. If you're staying with a single fuel and know the stoich point and it never changes then dealing in AFR is fine. I did for YEARS on my old car. Once you start changing fuels with different stoich points it can get confusing so Lambda is a simpler way to think of it. Stoich for any fuel is Lambda 1. More than 1 is lean less than 1 is rich. HPTuners can read the wide bands in Lambda as well as some AFR settings for different fuels like gasoline, ethanol, LPG, etc, but you can't create a custom one like the Hellcat would need (13.85). Using Lambda is the easiest. For gasoline a Lambda of .82 - .83 is what I target for PE. .82 x 13.85 = 11.35 AFR. On E85 I target .81 Lambda .81 x 9.85 = 7.97. At WOT on my E85 tune my AFR gauge reads 7.97.

Clear as mud?

Curious if youve had an opportunity to apply the Stoic change to a newer Hellcat? In the past (at least on original NA vehicles) Ive always input my injector data and commanded the Stoich I wanted and let the computer do the rest. For some reason when I did that in my Hellcat it wasnt happy, so I had to "hack" my injector data for e85. It took some slight tweaking but not too much.
I have been told that in 2019 (or maybe 2018) some of the logic changed and some of the ways of doing things no longer work properly.
I never get too much time to play with my personal car so there might be another outside setting I havent found yet. BTW I did finally get a pic of my AFR gauge in my car for you
 


Attachments

Speedy!

Infomercial Producer
Staff Team
Founding Member
U.S. Marine Veteran
9 Second Best E/T
HFCOTM & HFCOTY
Member ID
#1070
Messages
6,155
Reactions
15,760
Likes
402
City
Murfreesboro
State
TN
Country
United States
Vehicle
2016 Hellcat Go Man Go
#58
What in the world is that symbol?

My Hellcat is a 2016 and stoich works properly for the fuel being burned, so E85 shows 9.5-9.8 at idle on the dash gauge. Looking at a 2019 RE factory tune file it has all the same stoich tables so I "assume" it would work the same. It's probably easier for a tuner to just change injector data for E85 since you're just changing one thing. To make the dash read actual AFR requires about 12 changes if memory serves. I personally prefer it though to keep track of what fuel I'm running.
 


jonx96

4000 Posts Club
8 Second Best E/T
HFCOTM
Member ID
#4957
Messages
4,255
Reactions
10,587
Likes
302
City
Small town
State
MI
Country
United States
Vehicle
2019 Challenger Redeye
#59
Update

Data logged

My tuner said the AFR display in the dash reads at a different scale. He says I'm actually in the 11s. So I guess I'll quit worrying lol.
Did you datalog in lambda by chance?
Or post your datalog so we can see.
 


OP
Hemiride

Hemiride

Active Member
Founding Member
Member ID
#999
Messages
279
Reactions
291
Likes
37
City
Farwell
State
MI
Country
United States
Vehicle
2016 challenger hellcat
Thread Starter #60
I use my son for data logging. I'm kind of old lol
He has 3 forced induction vehicles. He does a lot with hp tuners. He does all the computer stuff.
 




Top